[1]
From:     "William S. Jewell" <wsj@EULER.BERKELEY.EDU>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date:     Fri, 2 Apr 1993 15:30:30 -0800
Subject:  Re:  apl-l UseNet batch for Mon Mar 29 23:59:09 AST 1993

(1) I suggest subscribers NOT send Postscript Files thru the net (cbbrowne).
        Why not state availability and give FTP file name ?
(2) After three months of wading through all of supposedly APL-stuff on this
        net, I estimate that 98% is on J !!  Could you please separate this
        server into <J> and <APL> ?
*===============================*===========================================**
||  William S. Jewell           |  e-mail:  wsj@euler.Berkeley.edu          ||
||  IEOR - 4173 Etcheverry      |                                           ||
||  University of California    |  phone:  +1 510 642-4928  (answer sys)    ||
||  Berkeley, CA 94720 USA      |  fax:    +1 510 643-8982  (EngSysResCtr)  ||
**==============================*===========================================**


[2] From: "L.J. Dickey" <ljdickey@math.uwaterloo.ca> Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1993 00:08:45 GMT Subject: APL vs J In an article posted today, wsj writes: >Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1993 15:30:30 -0800 > From: "William S. Jewell" <wsj@EULER.BERKELEY.EDU> > After three months of wading through all of supposedly > APL-stuff on this net, I estimate that 98% is on J !! > Could you please separate this server into <J> and <APL> ? First of all, the "server" he refers to is the LISTSERV server at UNB, which forwards the contents of "comp.lang.apl" to about one hundred or so people who receive e-mail, but who can not otherwise get the news group. The software at UNB simply does not support this kind of a split. How would one do it anyway? I would suggest to wsj@euler.berkeley.edu, and anyone else who shares his feelings: post something about APL ! Share some code, pose some questions. On another note, In the scheme of things, among the usenet news groups, the group comp.lang.apl is a _very_ small one. Once it was near extinction, and it was only because one person spoke up that it was not eliminated altogether. I think it is generally difficult to start new usenet groups under the "comp" heierarchy. Any usenet user can pose the question, call for discussion, and so on, in the right place. And then there has to be a vote. I don't know the rules, but the practices are interesting in themselves. (I find it a curious mix of anarchy and democracy.) If indeed the ratio is 98%, (not quite, I think) that might mean that there is not enough volume to keep "comp.lang.apl" going. Since October 1990, the most exciting developments in APL have been those introduced into J. Some readers are probably not aware that some of most interesting features in J have existed previously in other APLs, and that most of the rest of the interesting new stuff in J could be easily put into existing APLs as extensions in a way that conforms to the ISO standard. All APLers would do well to understand what these features are. I do not want to start the debate as to whether or not J is a dialect of APL. Let us say only that J grew out of APL. Would you agree with me when I say: The bigest news about APL is that now there are three or four versions that run under windows. I know that ISI, Manugistics, Dyalog all run under windows, and it might be that a product that uses APL2 is on the verge of being launched. Are there others? (yawn). If you disagree with me, tell me please: in your opinion, what exciting new language features have been introduced into your favorite flavour of APL?
[3] From: "H. Haussmann" <haussman%ds0ruh11.bitnet@utcc.utoronto.ca> Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1993 03:30:36 -0400 Subject: Re: apl-l UseNet batch for Sun Mar 21 23:59:07 AST 1993 Is there any discussion group on APL2 and serious work? I am fed up with this play about the mysterious letter j! Hans Haussmann, Department for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding (470) Universitaet Hohenheim, D7000 Stuttgart 70, FRG Phone 0711-459-2476 (-3006), Fax 0711-459-3290
[4] From: volker@sfb256.iam.uni-bonn.de ( Volker A. Brandt ) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1993 16:00:03 GMT Subject: Re: APL vs J In article <9304030008.AA09782@math.uwaterloo.ca> "L.J. Dickey" <ljdickey@math.uwaterloo.ca> writes: >In an article posted today, wsj writes: > > Could you please separate this server into <J> and <APL> ? A thought that I also had, but since total volume is still small in c.l.apl, I let it rest ... >I would suggest to wsj@euler.berkeley.edu, and anyone else who shares >his feelings: post something about APL ! Share some code, pose some >questions. Yes! That's better! >On another note, > >In the scheme of things, among the usenet news groups, the group >comp.lang.apl is a _very_ small one. Once it was near extinction, and >it was only because one person spoke up that it was not eliminated >altogether. Judging from recent traffic, the J topics are what keep c.l.apl from being endangered again ... >Since October 1990, the most exciting developments in APL >have been those introduced into J. [...] >All APLers would do well to understand what these features are. True, although it is hard to see those features clearly when you follow the J-related discussion. Although I could run J, I do not have time to do so, and thus I don't understand most of what's said in the J discussions. >Would you agree with me when I say: > > The bigest news about APL is that now there > are three or four versions that run under windows. Somehow this doesn't strike me that hard :-) I want an APL2 that's affordable, and I want it on my Atari ST, on my IBM PC, and -- most of all -- a free portable APL2 in the Gnu tradition. >I know that ISI, Manugistics, Dyalog all run under windows, and >it might be that a product that uses APL2 is on the verge of being >launched. Are there others? (yawn). If ISI accepted credit cards, I'd have ordered their version long ago, $30 is what I call affordable, even if it isn't [yet] APL2. >If you disagree with me, tell me please: in your opinion, >what exciting new language features have been introduced >into your favorite flavour of APL? Hmmm ... I'm still trying to learn how to use all those exciting new APL2 features :-) And then, "David Liebtag" <LIEBTAG@STLVM20.VNET.IBM.COM> writes: >Was that article designed to incite argument? :-) It seems so ;-) >Much as I find J fascinating, I don't agree that the only fascinating >things to happen in the APL world all revolve around J and Windows. >They're great, but not all there is. Weeell, I hate to pick on you, but I have a very hard time explaining to my clients than want to run IBM APL2/PC 1.02 on their PC why they have to throw out their IBM DOS 5.0 EMM program on their IBM PCs to be able to run the 32 bit version at all ... an IBM APL2/PC using XMS in a transparent fashion, that's what I would call exciting :-) While APL wouldn't exist without IBM, and I like APL2/PC, I feel that IBM is orphaning APL as a product. Or have I missed the 32-bit fully PM-integrated APL2 for OS/2 2.x? ;-))) >Yawn, I hope I can avoid another great my language is better than >yours debate. We'll see ... Have fun -- Volker -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bitnet: UNM409@DBNRHRZ1 Volker A. Brandt Internet: volker@sfb256.iam.uni-bonn.de Angewandte Mathematik Phone: +49 228 73 3427 (Bonn, Germany)
[5] From: sam@csi.jpl.nasa.gov (Sam Sirlin) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1993 17:37:58 GMT Subject: Re: Re: apl-l UseNet batch for Sun Mar 21 23: 59:07 AST 1993 In article <9304050716.AA08493@unb.ca>, "H. Haussmann" <haussman%ds0ruh11.bitnet@UTCC.UTORONTO.CA> writes: |> Is there any discussion group on APL2 and serious work? I am fed up |> with this play about the mysterious letter j! Feel free to start. Most (almost all) of us have access to j, but not to APL2. What else would you expect but that the preponderance of articles are about j? -- Sam Sirlin Jet Propulsion Laboratory sam@kalessin.jpl.nasa.gov
[6] From: rbe@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM (Robert Bernecky) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Tue, 6 Apr 93 18:08:04 GMT Subject: Re: apl-l UseNet batch for Sun Mar 21 23:59:07 AST 1993 In article <93Apr5.031407edt.9498@ugw.utcc.utoronto.ca> "H. Haussmann" <haussman%ds0ruh11.bitnet@utcc.utoronto.ca> writes: >Is there any discussion group on APL2 and serious work? I am fed up >with this play about the mysterious letter j! I find it interesting, myself, that very few APLers have anything to say in this group (APL2 or other APLs). I can only guess that are two reasons for it: a. Everything in APL2 is so easy that there is no need for discussion about it. (Somehow, I doubt this...) b. The APL2 people are still trying to figure out how to type in the DEL, so that they can enter a function. Bob ps; The above is a joke. Sort of. Robert Bernecky rbe@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.com bernecky@itrchq.itrc.on.ca Snake Island Research Inc (416) 368-6944 FAX: (416) 360-4694 18 Fifth Street, Ward's Island Toronto, Ontario M5J 2B9 Canada
[7] From: BILL KNIGHT <WRK0000@UNB.CA> Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1993 14:08:28 GMT Subject: HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ? For those of us dogs who are too old to learn new tricks, and therefore find this discussion group cluttered with long J programs, comments, and news about J we don't want, could not a new forum be established for J, leaving this one to APL in keeping with its name? Bill Knight / University of New Brunswick / Canada
[8] From: sam@csi.jpl.nasa.gov (Sam Sirlin) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: 26 Aug 1993 21:18:18 GMT Subject: Re: HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ? In article <26AUG93.10952471.0193@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>, BILL KNIGHT <WRK0000@UNB.CA> writes: |> For those of us dogs who are too old to learn new tricks, |> and therefore find this discussion group cluttered with |> long J programs, comments, and news about J we don't want, |> could not a new forum be established for J, |> leaving this one to APL in keeping with its name? I suppose I must then be a young pup, since I learned J, and would call it a dialect of APL. APL2 though still leaves me a bit cold. It often doesn't look much like the APL I know. Perhaps that should be another separate newsgroup? Frankly I think there aren't enough APL/J/APL2ers to support 2 or three groups. This is really a pretty small and inactive group as newsgroups go. -- Sam Sirlin Jet Propulsion Laboratory sam@kalessin.jpl.nasa.gov
[9] From: Lloyd M. Waugh <waugh@unb.ca> Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1993 16:46:55 GMT Subject: Re: HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ? In article <25j9aq$opc@csi.jpl.nasa.gov> Sam Sirlin, sam@csi.jpl.nasa.gov writes: >In article <26AUG93.10952471.0193@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>, BILL KNIGHT <WRK0000@UNB.CA> writes: >|> For those of us dogs who are too old to learn new tricks, >|> and therefore find this discussion group cluttered with >|> long J programs, comments, and news about J we don't want, >|> could not a new forum be established for J, >|> leaving this one to APL in keeping with its name? > >I suppose I must then be a young pup, since I learned J, and would >call it a dialect of APL. APL2 though still leaves me a bit cold. It >often doesn't look much like the APL I know. Perhaps that should be >another separate newsgroup? Frankly I think there aren't enough >APL/J/APL2ers to support 2 or three groups. This is really a pretty >small and inactive group as newsgroups go. > It seems that most of the articles in this news group are on J, and that the audience for APL and APL2 is probably getting discouraged just because of the sheer volume of J articles that they have to delete. If my assumption (that people are being turned off) is correct, then we must publicize a solution. Lloyd Waugh, Civil Engineering, University of New Brunswick.
[10] From: mclean@futon.SFSU.EDU (Emmett Mclean) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: 28 Aug 93 15:13:16 PDT Subject: Re: HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ? > > For those of us dogs who are too old to learn new tricks, > and therefore find this discussion group cluttered with > long J programs, comments, and news about J we don't want, > could not a new forum be established for J, > leaving this one to APL in keeping with its name? > Several issues : 1. Even before J came along APL did not generate much usenet traffic. According to Dr. Dickey at one point there was talk of discontinuing comp.lang.apl. 2. IMO it is difficult to presume APL'ers are discouraged from posting by reading about J. In fact the opposite may be true, perhaps we see more questions about fonts and APL stuff because some APL'ers are annoyed by J traffic. IMO, the largest source of discouragement to c.l.a is that APL'ers find that the effort they put into writting their posts is not worth the lack of attention they get for writting them. For example, Mr. Levine made two indepth posts, one about ISI APL and another about the workspace translation material in the newest version of ISI APL. No APL'ers followed up on c.l.a. Furthermore, it is my understanding that no APL'ers followed up via email either. After that Mr. Levine hasn't posted. 3. Except for several informative posts by David Liebtag at IBM, APL software venders ignore comp.lang.apl. Perhaps APL'ers could be encouraged if a vender compared their product with J. Or perhaps venders could take APL out of its ascii rut and most some C code which uses []NA. News about the control structures future dialects of APL would be nice too. But as it is, APL venders are ignoring a place where they can market and make a case for their products. 4. The *real* major source of discouragement is that APL is losing popularity in general. (IBM changing the price of APL2, at least temporaily is a step in the right direction.) 5. Finally, *I* find it annoying to see posts by people with nothing to say except that they hear too much about J. C.l.a could get to the state to where APL'ers are too lethargic to post or demonstrate an interest in APL and J programmers won't want to post for fear of discouraging APL'ers. I say, if you're into J you may not be posting enough. One complaint we hear from APLer's is that they are not interested in hearing news about C programs are called from J. But shouldn't APL'ers be able to read the C code, touch it up, and make it part of their version of APL? Shouldn't it be easier now, for example, to start on an APL2-Lapack or APL2-Plus/Lapack interface? -emmett
[11] From: gaylord@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard J. Gaylord) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1993 07:47:24 GMT Subject: Re: HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ? In article <1993Aug28.164655.17850@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>, Lloyd M. Waugh <waugh@unb.ca> wrote: > In article <25j9aq$opc@csi.jpl.nasa.gov> Sam Sirlin, sam@csi.jpl.nasa.gov > writes: > >In article <26AUG93.10952471.0193@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>, BILL KNIGHT > <WRK0000@UNB.CA> writes: > >|> For those of us dogs who are too old to learn new tricks, > >|> and therefore find this discussion group cluttered with > >|> long J programs, comments, and news about J we don't want, > >|> could not a new forum be established for J, > >|> leaving this one to APL in keeping with its name? > > ======== this is basically the same complaint we get in sci.math.symbolic regarding mathematica programming. here are some responses that we make to sci.math.symbolic [these can also be used for comp. lang..apl by changing mathematica to j and sci.math.symbiolic to comp.langapl. (1) were it not for discsussion of commercial computer algebra systems like mathematica there would be alomst no traffic in the group. (2) one very important role of the news groups is as an resource for novices to the subject. mathematica people created their own groups, who is going to find them o reven know to look for them. this is the most important issue for a 'new'language which is not well known and wants to make people aware of its existence. (3) sci.math.symbolic is seen in many many places. establshing a new group takes a bit of effort and time and many sites would probably not pick up the new group. (4) the mathematica people are quite satisfied (for now) with being on comp.lang.symbolic and don't intend to move [but one day when everyone is aware of and there is a large number of users [one indication of this will be when a substantial number of universites teach mathematica as a programming language], we will want to establish our own comp.lang.mathematica. -richard- "if you're not programming functionally, then you're programming dysfunctionally"
[12] From: ljdickey@math.uwaterloo.ca (L.J. Dickey) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 04:29:09 GMT Subject: Re: HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ? In article <25tf8rINNmi3@phage.cshl.org> wchang@phage.cshl.org ( CSHL) writes: >In article <1993Aug28.151317.6360@nic.csu.net> mclean@futon.SFSU.EDU >(Emmett Mclean) makes several points regarding c.l.a. My general >comments follow: > >Do we have any idea what the readership is? We need a survey >very badly. There are about 100 people who subscribe to the BITNET list APL-L@UNB.CA. This number has held steady, but there seem to be people hopping on and dropping off all the time. There are subscribers to an APL forum within compuserv, and these include more than those compuserv customers whose names are on the bitnet list. There are some wild-eyed guesses about the size of usenet, and the number of readers there are. These get posted on a regular basis. If I can find one, I will send it to you. >Is anyone here seriously interested in programming language >design and implementation issues, particularly regarding APL? (I am.) >My experience is that "mainstream" (for better or for worse) >computer scientists are shut out of c.l.a. because some APLers >think traditional C.S. can contribute nothing to APL. ? ? I thought it was the other way around! -- Prof. Leroy J. Dickey, Faculty of Mathematics, U of Waterloo, Canada N2L 3G1 Internet: ljdickey@math.UWaterloo.ca ljdickey@math.waterloo.edu UUCP: ljdickey@watmath.UUCP
[13] From: gaylord@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard J. Gaylord) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: 31 Aug 1993 07:09:24 GMT Subject: Re: HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ? before we decide to set up a group devoted to J, we might want to wait a while to see if arthur whitney follows through and makes his K language available, it could well replace J. i saw it at the APL93 meeting and it was incrediibly nice; much prettier syntax than J - see his article in the latest VEC%TOR. btw - does anyone have arthur's address or tel. no. i've lost it and he's not regularly on the net. thanks. "if you're not programming functionally, then you're programming dysfunctionally"
[14] From: gsd@ipsalab.tor.Soliton.COM (Dennis, Gary S.) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: 2 Sep 93 14:00:02 UT Subject: Re: HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ? -----------Message forwarded from IPSA Mailbox------------- no. 186440 filed 13.48.14 thu 2 sep 1993 from gsd to uclapl subj Re: HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ? ref 186367 expy 0.00.00 3 oct 1993 Re: Emmett Mclean's excellent response I guess I'd qualify as an old dog, having been involved with APL for 20 years and having thus far managed not to make the jump to J - lack of time to spend on it, a couple of really nice APL's to play with (ours and Eric's) and the fact that I haven't needed to do anything yet that cried out for some neat new J feature being the primary reasons. As a non J person, I must confess that I too wind up tossing most J traffic after skimming it for relevance to the stuff I use - but I don't agree that a new group is needed. J is a variant of APL, a fair-sized chunk of the APL community are also J freaks, and it seems to me that J fans and more traditional APL fans have a lot in common and a strong need to keep sharing their ideas with each other. I have a couple of observations on Emmett's observations, though: 1) Response to posts appears to fluctuate wildly. While Mr. Levine's excellent posts may have appeared to fall on deaf ears at the time, I've gotten several responses to my recent much more trivial posting about ISI APL - and I'm pretty well convinced that the folks who responded will order products from ISI. I'm sorry to hear that Mr. Levine has decided posting is a waste of time - it may well be that his work fueled some thought on somebody's part that they didn't feel like posting, and I hope he'll reconsider. 2) Vendors ignore comp.lang.apl??!!! Good grief!! 8 of the 31 employee/associates at Soliton Associates (vendors of SHARP APL), including a couple of senior developers, senior tech support and marketing people and our CEO are faithful readers. Admittedly, I'm the only one here who posts very much (every couple of months, on the average) and my posts tend to be endorsements for ISI's products or announcements regarding our own stuff - occasionally the company routes stuff through me as I'm known to post occasionally and USENET transmission from our system is a mildly convoluted and not generally known process. I've had something of a tendency to act as a net mouthpiece for Eric Iverson of ISI - this is ending, as he's now enrolled in comp.lang.apl via our system (his net address is ebi@ipsalab.tor.soliton.com for the moment and will probably be ebi@soliton.com as soon as we can get him enrolled directly on our gateway system) and has promised (in a conversation at APL93) to read the net feed fairly frequently and respond as necessary, once he gets back from vacation next week. There are the aforementioned David Leibtag posts, and I've seen a post from James Wheeler sometime this year. While I think it can fairly be claimed that the vendors don't contribute a lot to the programming-techniques discussions that form the bulk of comp.lang.apl, we ARE listening and some of us aren't shy about hopping on the net when we think we have something useful to contribute. 3. Loss of popularity: IBM's price breaks and ISI's effectively-free APLs should help with this, as may Manugistics' new INCA (It's Not Called APL) project which hopes to get a toe in the door of the anti-APL bigots and the world at large by providing groovy application-building tools with APL secretly lurking in their depths. /Gary Dennis (gsd@soliton.com) ----------------------------------------------------------- This posting is forwarded from an internal Soliton mailbox. No statement or opinion contained herein should be taken as being Soliton policy, or even as being approved by Soliton, in any way.
[15] From: "H. Haussmann" <haussman%ds0ruh11.bitnet@UTCC.UTORONTO.CA> Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: 03 Sep 93 12:46:48 GMT Subject: no subject given Please establish a separate discussion group for J! Otherwise I will sign off. Hans Haussmann, Department for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding, University of Hohenheim, Germany. Address: Universitaet Hohenheim (470/HG), D-70593 Stuttgart Phone: 0711-459-2476 (-3006), Fax: 0711-459-3290 E-Mail: haussman at ds0ruh11.bitnet
[16] From: gaylord@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard J. Gaylord) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: 3 Sep 1993 15:38:21 GMT Subject: Re: no subject given In article <19930903.094648.25171@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>, "H. Haussmann" <haussman%ds0ruh11.bitnet@UTCC.UTORONTO.CA> wrote: > Please establish a separate discussion group for J! Otherwise I will > sign off. > > Hans Haussmann, Department for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding, > University of Hohenheim, Germany. > Address: Universitaet Hohenheim (470/HG), D-70593 Stuttgart > Phone: 0711-459-2476 (-3006), Fax: 0711-459-3290 > E-Mail: haussman at ds0ruh11.bitnet ====================== we'll miss you. -- "if you're not programming functionally, then you're programming dysfunctionally"
[17] From: murray@thales.tmc.edu (Murray Eisenberg) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: 7 Sep 1993 03:07:46 GMT Subject: Re: J and comp.lang.apl In article <19930903.094648.25171@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca> "H. Haussmann" <haussman%ds0ruh11.bitnet@UTCC.UTORONTO.CA> writes: >Please establish a separate discussion group for J! Otherwise I will >sign off. > Please do NOT separate J from other APL. First, on logical grounds: those who have kept up with APL developments over the years know that J is a natural outgrowth of APL development over quite a few years (I'm not attempting to tackle the question of whether J is a different language than APL, or merely a dialect, although I have my opinion). Second, on practical grounds: there IS some community of common interest between (traditional) APL and J -- after all Iverson Software, Inc. produces both APL and J. Those who do not wish to see J stuff can readily avoid it through their news reader. For the rest of us, it's easier to find what we are interested in a single news group than in two separate ones. (If the amount of traffic in this news group should grow significantly, then that might be the time to contemplate such a split into two as some now advocate.) -- Murray Eisenberg Internet: murray@math.umass.edu Mathematics & Statistics Dept. Voice: 413-545-2859 (W) University of Massachusetts 413-549-1020 (H) Amherst, MA 01003 Fax: 413-545-1801
[18] From: cbrady@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Chris Brady The RA") Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 14:46:18 GMT Subject: Howzabout creating a J conference?? I am an APLer of some 10 years hence my membership of this conference. I am not interested in J even if it is APL-like. Can someone create a J conference and keep this for APL, please? Many thanks.
[19] From: skybird@satelnet.org (Scott Pallack) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: 11 Jun 1994 13:54:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Howzabout creating a J conference?? In <Cr6rp6.MGu@cix.compulink.co.uk> cbrady@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Chris Brady The RA") writes: >I am an APLer of some 10 years hence my membership of this conference. I >am not interested in J even if it is APL-like. Can someone create a J >conference and keep this for APL, please? Many thanks. Why? They are the same language. -- INTPs of the world UNITE! Join the INTP mailing list. To subscribe email listserv@satelnet.org with body: SUBSCRIBE INTP (subject: ignored) If you don't know what INTP means, finger skybird@satelnet.org Scott Pallack skybird@satelnet.org
[20] From: Beattie@hignfy.demon.co.uk (John Beattie) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 08:45:18 +0000 Subject: Re: Howzabout creating a J conference?? In article <2tctoj$c8j@sefl.satelnet.org> skybird@satelnet.org "Scott Pallack" writes: [snip] > >Why? They are the same language. Dialects at best. As a comparison, Norwegians & Swedes can talk to each other but not read each others text. (At least, that is what I have been told.) There seems to be very little cross-reference between APL threads and J threads, so at first sight two groups seems like a good idea. However, would separate groups mean that 'APL'-only readers don't get J posts? Perhaps people will post in whatever group they happen to be reading and the two groups will get mixed up again or one will die. -- John Beattie internet:beattie@hignfy.demon.co.uk
[21] From: gsd@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM (Gary S Dennis) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Tue, 14 Jun 94 14:23:16 GMT Subject: Re: Howzabout creating a J conference?? In <Cr6rp6.MGu@cix.compulink.co.uk>, Chris Brady writes: >I am an APLer of some 10 years hence my membership of this conference. I >am not interested in J even if it is APL-like. Can someone create a J >conference and keep this for APL, please? Many thanks. This subject has inspired some lengthy flame wars in the past. Let's hope it doesn't this time. Let me take a quick run at what I believe to be the majority opinion among current comp.lang.apl participants: J is a legitimate variant of APL and algorithms have a strong tendency to be easily adaptable from one to the other. Due to the character limitations of Usenet, it is much easier to post programs written in J than it is for APL. Hopefully Unicode will solve that problem for us someday, but that's a year or 3 off yet. More importantly, APL and J programmers tend to share the APL world view and have a common interest in promoting usage of both languages. The languages are Siamese twins, a lot of people use both languages depending on what they need to do, and there's very little to be gained, and much lost, from dividing our tiny community into two even tinier groups. I am an APLer of 21 years experience and, I blush to say, have yet to invest the time to learn J, as I'm chronically swamped with other demands. But I AM interested in seeing the J traffic go by, and would prefer to continue as a single newsgroup. I can always toss a given post as soon as I determine it's not of interest. While I'm no expert on killfile construction, I suspect one can build one that specifically excludes all traffic with " J " anywhere in its subject line, so that one never has to see the J stuff. Somebody else in the group will doubtless explain how, if they're familiar with your particular news reader. I hope you can find it in your heart to tolerate the J traffic or exclude it somehow at your end - the group isn't likely to split any time soon, and it's a loss to all of us when any of us drop out. /Gary Dennis (gsd@soliton.com) /Soliton Associates Limited (makers of SHARP APL) /speaking for myself in this instance
[22] From: bobs@access.digex.net (Bob Smith) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 14:03:05 Subject: Re: Howzabout creating a J conference?? In article <1994Jun14.142316.5015@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM> gsd@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM (Gary S Dennis) writes: >From: gsd@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM (Gary S Dennis) >Subject: Re: Howzabout creating a J conference?? >Date: Tue, 14 Jun 94 14:23:16 GMT >In <Cr6rp6.MGu@cix.compulink.co.uk>, Chris Brady writes: >>I am an APLer of some 10 years hence my membership of this conference. I >>am not interested in J even if it is APL-like. Can someone create a J >>conference and keep this for APL, please? Many thanks. [cogent argument deleted] As one who is not literate in J programming, I can see how it can be frustrating to see J's ASCII symbols fly by, coupled with (at least my) inability to distinguish sentence punctuation from J syntax (is that sentence clause missing an opening brace or is there a piece of J buried later on?). This suggests that J writers (when they cross the street are they J walkers?) should be careful to avoid this confusion. At least APL writers have the mixed blessing of rarely confusing the reader as to whether that {rho} or {epsilon} was English or APL syntax (of course, these same writers can't get their cherished glyphs into print, at least not in this medium). I find it ironic that one of the guiding principles of J (no more glyphs -- sounds like a T-shirt) can turn around and bite its proponents who sprinkle its syntax into English sentences in such a way that it is difficult to parse! Nonetheless, I believe we would all be diminished if these two close languages were to sunder. One lesson that should have been learned by the many of us who suffered through the early years of APL's growth is tolerance. To APL fans: Rather than relegate J-oriented messages to a killfile, read and learn from them. If the messages are sufficiently well-written, you should be able to absorb the concepts and apply them to your APL programs. Remember all your friends whom you tried to interest in this thing called APL? The tables have turned. Listen and learn! To J fans: Greet this new audience as intelligent programmers with a solid grounding in array-oriented structures and all that goes with that. You will never get a better class of students! Sieze this opportunity to educate and elucidate. Emphasize the positive aspects of J, and explain what you're doing. Ok, let's all kiss and make up.
[23] From: donwiss@panix.com (Don Wiss) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 16:35:02 GMT Subject: Re: What's All the Fuss About 'J'? On Sun, 29 Oct 1995, Lee Dickey <ljdickey@math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote: >> I keep perusing the FAQ's but with no success: what is J? Is it some >> improvement over APL, or just a minor modification, the way C++ is to C. >> >> -- Scott McC. > >Welcome to the discussion about APL and J. >There are some FAQs for J itself. Check out the J Archives. >It has several introductory papers for beginners. >Point your world wide web brouser at > > ftp://archive.uwaterloo.ca/languages/j/Welcome.html But why is J in the same group here with APL? Why doesn't it have its own newsgroup/mailing list? Don.
[24] From: jimw@math.umass.edu (Jim Weigang) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 23:47:38 GMT Subject: Re: What's All the Fuss About 'J'? Don Wiss wrote on 29 Oct 1995: > But why is J in the same group here with APL? Why doesn't it have its > own newsgroup/mailing list? This subject has come up before and did not result in compelling reasons to separate the groups. I've put what I was able to find on the topic in a file (size=54K): (Obsolete URL deleted. You're looking at the file.) I'm not trying to stifle discussion, but I urge posters to read the thread before adding to it. For those who have a copy of the APL Newsreader and comp.lang.apl archive, the threadheads are: [1] 2 Apr 93 (21) Jewell, William S apl-l UseNet batch for Mon Mar 29 23 [2] 3 Apr 93 (68) Dickey, L. J. APL vs J [5] 5 Apr 93 (14) Haussmann, H. apl-l UseNet batch for Sun Mar 21 23 [10] 26 Aug 93 (17) KNIGHT, BILL HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ? [24] 3 Sep 93 (19) Haussmann, H. no subject given [26] 7 Sep 93 (40) Eisenberg, Murray J and comp.lang.apl [27] 10 Jun 94 (13) Brady, Chris Howzabout creating a J conference?? If you would like to get a free copy of the APL Newsreader and full comp.lang.apl archive, see the newsreader item in: http://www.chilton.com/~jimw or e-mail me if you don't have WWW access. Jim
[25] From: donwiss@panix.com (Don Wiss) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 18:57:05 GMT Subject: Re: What's All the Fuss About 'J'? On Sun, 29 Oct 1995 23:47:38 GMT, jimw@math.umass.edu (Jim Weigang) wrote: >[1] 2 Apr 93 (21) Jewell, William S apl-l UseNet batch for Mon Mar 29 23 >[2] 3 Apr 93 (68) Dickey, L. J. APL vs J >[5] 5 Apr 93 (14) Haussmann, H. apl-l UseNet batch for Sun Mar 21 23 >[10] 26 Aug 93 (17) KNIGHT, BILL HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ? >[24] 3 Sep 93 (19) Haussmann, H. no subject given >[26] 7 Sep 93 (40) Eisenberg, Murray J and comp.lang.apl >[27] 10 Jun 94 (13) Brady, Chris Howzabout creating a J conference?? I would hope that the traffic of J related messages is greater now that it was two years ago (when I was not here). Is J not a growing language that should have its own recognition? Don.
[26] From: Jim Weigang <jimw@MATH.UMASS.EDU> Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: 31 Oct 95 05:23:38 GMT Subject: Re: What's All the Fuss About 'J'? Don Wiss wrote on 30 Oct 1995 18:57:05 GMT: > I would hope that the traffic of J related messages is greater now > that it was two years ago (when I was not here). Is J not a growing > language that should have its own recognition? Comp.lang.apl volume: Bytes Posts --------- ----- 1989-91 1,904,775 1,100 1992 2,127,552 1,010 1993 3,499,003 1,429 1994 5,166,491 2,231 1995 4,133,406 1,885 1996 4,200,000 1,900 (est. as of June) The question is not whether J deserves its own group, it's whether comp.lang.apl would survive if the J postings were removed. There are other good reasons for keeping the groups together. Read the thread. Jim
[27] From: Bj=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F6rn Helgason <bjornhp@simi.is>?= Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 08:06:34 +0000 Subject: Apl and J Martin Neitzel ...>[PS: "ascii as a tool of iceland" -- would "Bjoern" be ...> better surrogate for your name than "Bjorn"? Im still ...> 8-bit-challenged.] Because my name is neither "Bjorn" nor "Bjoern" I prefer Gosi which travels well in the 7-bit world. The letter that does not travel is "o" with two dots on top. It is number 214 in codepage 1252. It is number 153 in codepages 850 and 861. In roman8 it is number 218. In unicode it is number 214 0 or 0 214. ...> "J is a dialect of APL, ...> a formal imperative language." That does NOT imply that it must necessarily be discussed in the same newsgroup as APL all the time. I am sure that once we have two newsgroups there will be occasional cross-references. Many people sending contributions to both. If you look under Basic you see: "comp.lang.basic.*(5 groups) comp.lang.basic.misc comp.lang.basic.visual*(4 groups) comp.lang.basic.visual.3rdparty comp.lang.basic.visual.announce comp.lang.basic.visual.database comp.lang.basic.visual.misc" There is no reason why we should not have a different structure for APL and J. "comp.lang.apl.*(12 groups) comp.lang.apl.misc comp.lang.apl.visual.*(4 groups) comp.lang.apl.visual.3rdparty comp.lang.apl.visual.announce comp.lang.apl.visual.database comp.lang.apl.visual.misc comp.lang.apl.dialects*(7 groups) comp.lang.apl.dialects.apl2 comp.lang.apl.dialects.j*(5 groups) comp.lang.apl.dialects.j.misc comp.lang.apl.dialects.j.visual.*(4 groups) comp.lang.apl.dialects.j.visual.3rdparty comp.lang.apl.dialects.j.visual.announce comp.lang.apl.dialects.j.visual.database comp.lang.apl.dialects.j.visual.misc comp.lang.dialects.k" There are reasons to believe that more people would be willing to participate in apl/j related issues if the topics would be separated a bit so the simple minds could get a place to get a place to went out the initial problems of getting to know apl/j in more specific newsgroups. Obviously the explosion of the webtools and the spread of newsreaders have made it simpler and easier for a lot of people to participate in newsgroups. For those who do not have access to easy to use newsreaders it could possibly be possible to give them an option to subscribe to all apl related newsgroups with one request and be updated on all new groups. They could then remove them individually if they are not interested in a particular topic. Trying to put all apl/j related issues into one newsgroup may be a hindrance to the spread of apl/j. There is already time announced for the first J user conference and J has at least one own web page. Apl2 has similarily had its own events. Even if Apl2 and J have both their origin in APL they have both changed quite a lot from each other and aspects of both should really be discussed in separate newsgroups even if some issues can be discussed one newsgroup or even sent to both (all ?). /Gosi bjornhp@simi.is http://www.jsoftware.com
[28] From: moth@magenta.com (Soft Wings) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: 04 Mar 1996 17:34:53 GMT Subject: Re: Apl and J Note that the primary justification for splitting newsgroups is traffic. Perhaps there's enough traffic to justify splitting off a second newsgroup for j. I doubt there's currently enough traffic to fill out much more than a second group (though that may eventually change). -- Raul
[29] From: Björn Helgason <bjornhp@simi.is> Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 08:15:48 +0000 Subject: Apl and J moth@magenta.com (Soft Wings)Raul writes: ...> Note that the primary justification for splitting newsgroups is ...> traffic. Perhaps there's enough traffic to justify splitting off ...> a second newsgroup for j. It is quite interesting that we should split the group if there is too much traffic. My argument is the opposite. We should split the group to get more traffic. I think potential traffic about J is not finding a newsgroup. That is my main reason for wanting a newsgroup for J. I want to continue to participate in APL even if a new group is formed for J. I want to be able to use APL again if/when APL and Icelandic can begin to coexist and be accepted by users. What does it take to start a newsgroup ? -- /Gosi bjornhp@simi.is http://www.jsoftware.com Bjorn Helgason Spitalastig 4 101 Reykjavik Iceland
[30] From: kbi@zap.io.org (Kirk B. Iverson) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: 5 Mar 1996 15:01:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Apl and J In article <313BF834.2679@simi.is>, Björn Helgason <bjornhp@simi.is> wrote: >moth@magenta.com (Soft Wings)Raul writes: > >...> Note that the primary justification for splitting newsgroups is >...> traffic. Perhaps there's enough traffic to justify splitting off >...> a second newsgroup for j. > >It is quite interesting that we should split the group if there is too >much traffic. My argument is the opposite. We should split the group >to get more traffic. I think potential traffic about J is not finding >a newsgroup. That is my main reason for wanting a newsgroup for J. > >I want to continue to participate in APL even if a new group is formed >for J. I want to be able to use APL again if/when APL and Icelandic >can begin to coexist and be accepted by users. > >What does it take to start a newsgroup ? You can learn more about Usenet news group creation at: http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/creating-newsgroups/top.html In a nutshell, a Request For Discussion (RFD) is posted and discussed in the group news.groups. The important aspects of the proposal which will be questioned are: 1/ is the new group properly named? Ie does it fit in the hierarchy properly. I doubt whether there is much question over comp.lang.j. 2/ is there enough traffic to support such a group. This is determined by *existing* traffic patterns, rather than anticipated traffic. Here's where I think comp.lang.j will have a problem. After a period of discussion, the original proponents can request a Call For Votes. A carried vote must have 2/3s of the votes in favor, *and* the yes votes must exceed the no votes by at least 100. The point of the vote, by the way, is not to see whether the majority of readers in the affected news groups desire a new group, but to convince the news administrators around the world that it is worthwhile for them to create a position in the hierarchy for such a discussion. (This is all theory, remember). And a final quote from the "Usenet Newsgroup Creation Companion" (available through the above URL): "Wallace Sayre said, "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, because the stakes are so low." He didn't know Usenet: welcome to the next level." -- Kirk B. Iverson kbi@io.org kbi@acm.org CIS:74361,3602
[31] From: elandau@cais3.cais.com (Eric Landau) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: 29 Feb 1996 13:51:46 GMT Subject: Re: Why is J discussed in comp.lang.apl Martin Neitzel (neitzel@gaertner.de) wrote: > Alan> I think that the structure suggests comp.lang.<anylanguage>. > But not comp.lang.<anylanguagedialect> > Bjorn> I think now that people looking for J do not think it a natural > Bjorn> place to look for J under APL. > Bjorn, as a distributor of J you should be able to grab the documentation > you are selling, pick the "Dictionary" as the most important of the three > books, and read the very first sentence: > "J is a dialect of APL, a formal imperative language." > I don't see why it should not be natural to look for J under APL... It might be natural for us APLers and J'ers to look for J under APL, but why would we expect someone who's just seen J for the first time and is looking for it on Usenet to have it ever occur to them to look under APL? I think this is Bjorn's point. Sure, the Dictionary says that J is a dialect of APL, because they're similar in underlying concept and so different from the usual run of languages. But if underlying concept made for a mere difference in dialect, Basic would be a dialect of Fortran, and Pascal would be a dialect of Algol. To someone not very familiar with them, APL and J look a lot more different from one another than do Fortran and Basic or Pascal and Algol. Imagine you've just seen both languages for the first time in back-to- back half-day demos. Can anyone out there honestly claim that they would recognize them as dialects of the same language? Usenet recognizes C++ and Visual Basic as separate languages, not as dialects to be looked for under C and Basic respectively. IMHO, to insist on continuing the marriage of convenience between APL and J on Usenet demonstrates the kind of insularity that we in the APL and J communities resent being accused of by outsiders. Even among ourselves, there are surely some people out there who use and are interested in APL but not J, or J but not APL. As a practical matter, it's a lot easier to subscribe to two newsgroups than it is to subscribe to half a newsgroup. Count my vote as one in favor of comp.lang.j. -- Eric Landau, APL Solutions, Inc. (elandau@cais.com) "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger." -- Abbie Hoffman
[32] From: jhowland@ariel.cs.trinity.edu (John E. Howland) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: 1 Mar 1996 16:07:40 GMT Subject: Re: Why is J discussed in comp.lang.apl Eric Landau (elandau@cais3.cais.com) wrote: > Count my vote as one in favor of comp.lang.j. I agree!. To continue to hide J within the APL community seems to me to be a recipe which insures that it will continue to be hidden. J is such an important gem that it deserves an identity of its own which is clearly visible to all. If I describe J as a dialect of APL, people often immediately dismiss it as something that they would have little or no interest in. This may not be the case in Europe or other parts of the world, but this response is rather common in the U.S. John -- ________________________________________________________________ John E. Howland url: http://www.cs.trinity.edu/~jhowland/ Computer Science email: jhowland@ariel.cs.trinity.edu Trinity University voice: (210) 736-7480 715 Stadium Drive fax: (210) 736-7477 San Antonio, Texas 78212-7200
[33] From: n5gax@mack.rt66.com (Duke McMullan) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: 1 Mar 1996 10:24:13 -0700 Subject: Re: Why is J discussed in comp.lang.apl In article <DnIo7w.o2F@gaertner.de>, Martin Neitzel <neitzel@gaertner.de> wrote: >I don't see why it should not be natural to look for J under APL. Well, I've been a computer weenie since the sixties, and after catching the article on J in Byte last year, it took me quite a bit of digging before I found out that the J discussions occur here. If you have a good feel for both the languages (I knew ~0 about apl, and I'd never heard of J) such an inference might follow without difficulty, but for one unfamiliar with the languages -- and their heritage and similarity -- there's precisely no reason whatever to associate the apl newsgroup with the J language. Would you expect someone green to computers to sit down at a UNIX terminal and acquire a useful knowledge of the system and its capabilities using only the man pages? Suppose the newbie was told that there's an online manual, and that's it. It might take several days just to _find_ them. This is a direct parallel to the topic. >Each camp has certainly its own problems to tackle, but there's >so much common ground that a split would be ridiculous in my view. Ridiculous? Not at all. However, there doubtless are good arguments against splitting the group. If you want to place an informational "kinetic energy barrier" for potential jugglers, well, you're doing it now, by design or no. The truth-in-labelling laws suggest a slight change of newsgroup to something like comp.lang.apl&j, although that embedded '&' might gag a lot of newsreaders. Perhaps apl-and-j might fit better. I suggest avoiding comp.lang.aplj. People might think you're discussing how to make applejack. ;^) d -- Erin go braghless! Duke McMullan n5gax nss13429rl phon505-255-4642 n5gax@mack.rt66.com
[34] From: neitzel@gaertner.de (Martin Neitzel) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 20:45:09 GMT Subject: Re: Why is J discussed in comp.lang.apl > The truth-in-labelling laws suggest a slight change of newsgroup to > something like comp.lang.apl&j, although that embedded '&' might gag a lot > of newsreaders. Perhaps apl-and-j might fit better. The correct approach would be to change not the newsgroup's name but its description line. It currently reads: comp.lang.apl Discussion about APL. and could read comp.lang.apl Discussion about APL, A, J, K, O and others. Grepping this newsgroups list is the equivalent of a "man -k". At any rate, if you came to J via the Byte article and as an non-APLer, then it's really your opinion that counts, not mine. I give in. I'll check out the current formal requirements and set up a straw poll in the next days. Many people prefer to (or must) follow the J stuff here via the gatewayted mailing list. I guess they are concerned as well. Martin Neitzel
[35] From: donwiss@panix.com (Don Wiss) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 21:52:31 GMT Subject: Re: Why is J discussed in comp.lang.apl On 29 Feb 1996 13:51:46 GMT, elandau@cais3.cais.com (Eric Landau) wrote: >Even among ourselves, there are surely some people out there who use and >are interested in APL but not J, or J but not APL. As someone with a major investment in an APL program, I have no interest in J. Frequently I've had to open up articles to see whether J or APL was being discussed, as the headers don't always say. And sometimes I've had to read halfway through the article before finding that the question was about J. >Count my vote as one in favor of comp.lang.j. Me too. I would think that the J users would like their own group. People scanning the list of newsgroups would see it, and out of curiosity stop in and check it out. But, I think the reason the J users want to remain here is so they can try to convert the APL users over to their language. Don.
[36] From: donwiss@panix.com (Don Wiss) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 02:59:49 GMT Subject: Re: Why is J discussed in comp.lang.apl On Fri, 1 Mar 1996, neitzel@gaertner.de (Martin Neitzel) wrote: >The correct approach would be to change not the newsgroup's name but >its description line. It currently reads: > >comp.lang.apl Discussion about APL. > >and could read > >comp.lang.apl Discussion about APL, A, J, K, O and others. I don't know where you see the description line, unless you are already subscribed to the mailing list. My newsreader only lists the group names. Don.
[37] From: neitzel@gaertner.de (Martin Neitzel) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 00:47:01 GMT Subject: Re: Why is J discussed in comp.lang.apl > But, I think the reason the J users want to remain here is so they can try > to convert the APL users over to their language. If *I* were out to collect masses of converts, I'd go straight to comp.lang.c and start there. The number of kids who would mistake J to be some seventh generation C due to the name would probably outnumber all APLers in this group. You should see my evil grin now. Martin Neitzel
[38] From: donwiss@panix.com (Don Wiss) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 04:39:32 GMT Subject: Re: Why is J discussed in comp.lang.apl On 5 Mar 1996 01:52:47 GMT, murray@math.umass.edu (Murray Eisenberg) wrote: >Rationale: With J still as new as it is, it is highly desirable that >those familiar with APL and not yet of closed minds see discussion of >J, too. See, just what I said. The reason why the J people want to remain in this group is so they can try to convert the APLers over to J. Don.
[39] From: Don Howson <howson@ccn.cs.dal.ca> Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:58:51 -0400 Subject: News group. How about renaming the group "comp.lang.apl-j"? Anyone one looking for either APL or J will know what it means. .../don /*==========================================================================*\ = DON HOWSON = - NetWare and Microcomputer Consulting - - Certified DOCS Open Reseller - 5 Silver's Road Internet: howson@ccn.cs.dal.ca Dartmouth, Nova Scotia Telephone: (902) 466-5521 CANADA B2Y 1S5 (BMW R65) \*==========================================================================*/
[40] From: donwiss@panix.com (Don Wiss) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 23:21:56 GMT Subject: Re: News group. On Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:58:51 -0400, Don Howson <howson@ccn.cs.dal.ca> wrote: >How about renaming the group "comp.lang.apl-j"? Anyone one looking for >either APL or J will know what it means. Why would someone looking for the J group (let's say they just saw it mentioned in a magazine) realize that apl-j means it is two languages in the same group. It looks to me like just a version of apl. To draw in prospective users it should be nothing less than comp.lang.j. Don.
[41] From: Ken Iverson <kei@Soliton.COM> Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:37:51 GMT Subject: Dialects in comp.lang.apl One reason for maintaining a group devoted to all dialects of APL is the interest of different solutions to the same problem, as in the solutions to the Ball Clock problem given by Weigang (APL) and Hui (J). I hope that more problems will be submitted with invitations for solutions in any dialect. Here is one: Although the binomial coefficient 10!21 is an integer, the straightforward calculation of !21 divided by the product of !10 and !11 would only approximate an integer, because !21 is not represented to full precision. In the first implementation of APL, Larry Breed provided precise integers by judicious cancellations. The problem posed is to write a corresponding precise calculation of the binomial coefficients in some dialect.
[42] From: Randy MacDonald <randy@godin.on.ca> Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:08:27 GMT Subject: Re: Dialects in comp.lang.apl Eric Landau <elandau@cais3.cais.com> writes: > With all due respect, the question raised originally is whether APL and J > should be considered dialects of the same language or separate languages, > and Dr. Iverson seems to be saying tautologically that the answer is the > former by assumption. With all due respect, even if the above was the _original_ question, perhaps it is true that the _Important_ question being discussed here is whether or not there should be a comp.lang.j newsgroup. I am also hard pressed to see where the usefullness of comparing solutions in APL vs. J translates to a tautological declaration of a dialect relationship. I am sure the dialect vs. separate language debate will go on and on, but the real question is the creation of a new newsgroup. There exists an actual procedure for the creation of the group, someone just has to do it. > The fact that the solution to the ball clock -- or > any other, or even just about any -- problem is logically similar in APL > and J doesn't make them dialects of a single language; if it did, one > could just as easily argue that Fortran and Basic, or Algol and Pascal, > are dialects of the same language. My perception is that the above Algol-based languages really are kissin' cousins if not in fact dialects. APL and J also shares origins, and a community, that even Nial doesn't even really share. > It's certainly true that comparisons of problem solutions in APL and J > make for interesting and informative reading, but so do comparisions of > problem solutions in APL and C++, or in J and COBOL. And we'd all agree > that the right place for those would be in a newsgroup devoted to > comparing languages, not in single-language newsgroups devoted to the > common languages of which APL and C++ or J and COBOL are dialects. hmm... comp.lang.comparative; why would {person partisan to given language X} even BOTHER to look at this group. why not: Subject: comparison of program in A vs. B Newsgroups: comp.lang.a, comp.lang.b This would certainly do. Of course the orders-of-magnitude difference between J and C programs for example would for the most part be lost on the latter news group. (I've tried.) > I'd argue that dialects of a common language are both logically and > notationally similar, e.g. C and C++, Algol 60 and Algol 68, APL\360 and > APL2. Language groups, OTOH, consist of languages which are logically > but not notationally similar, e.g. Fortran and Basic, Algol and Pascal, > APL and J. This is just hairsplitting semantics. When one language really has only a handful of essential differences from another, and almost all of them are extensions, I'd call it a dialect. -- |\/| Randy A MacDonald |"You just ASK them?" |\\| randy@godin.on.ca | Richard P. Feynman BSc(Math) UNBF '83 | APL: If you can say it, it's done. Natural Born APL'er | *** GLi Info: info@godin.on.ca *** | Also http://www.godin.com/godin/ ------------------------------------------------<-NTP>----{ gnat }-
[43] From: Mike Kent <70530.1226@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: 13 Mar 1996 20:12:09 GMT Subject: Re: Dialects in comp.lang.apl I do not think that it's a good idea to spin off a new newsgroup for J, but the practical issue that people may not look at c.l.a immediately if they're interested in J is not insignificant. What might serve better (and get people from outiside the [APL, J, Nial] world to look in) is a renaming of the newsgroup to something like "comp.lang.array-oriented"; this tactic serves the people interested in functional languages pretty well, the newsgroup named "comp.lang.functional" covering discussion of all functional languages, not just of some language named "functional". // mike kent -- mkent@acm.org
[44] From: trubisz@cs.sunysb.edu (Joe Trubisz) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: 17 Sep 1996 14:57:15 GMT Subject: Why not comp.lang.J? I've been a APL programmer for a awfully long time. I have read in such places as Vector, how little APL is used in colleges and industry, compared to other languages. Namely, APL has an identity crisis which is getting worse. Now we have this new language, J, which takes a good number of pages in Vector and has a significant number of postings in this newsgroup. When Vector wondered in a issue not too long ago why APL is not flourishing, then maybe this can be looked at as a good reason. Why should someone use APL when the magazines and even this user group seems to be switching to J? If APL dies (which I think it will eventually will, and not in the distant future either), then all the people who jumped on the J bandwagon at the expense of APL should be held accountable. If you want to discuss J, then start your own group. Let the APLers remain APLers, or else we'll see APL fall by the wayside as some ancient language did thousands of years ago. Joe Trubisz Dept. of Computer Science SUNY Stony Brook Stony Brook, NY 11794
[45] From: cdburke@aol.com (CDBurke) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: 18 Sep 1996 13:04:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Why not comp.lang.J? Joe Trubisz writes: >If APL dies (which I think it will eventually will, and not in the >distant future either), then all the people who jumped on the J >bandwagon at the expense of APL should be held accountable. If APL dies you can hardly blame J. APL was in decline well before J came on the scene. Rather, you should be delighted that a modern replacement for APL is now available. Gary Mooney writes: >There's lots of interesting discussion at the micro level of J. But why >are there so few messages at the macro level -- i.e. commercial >applications of J? Gosi is about the only one who introduces topics >that have a commercial flavour. Is no one doing commercial development >in J? Do the developers stay away from this newsgroup? Any thoughts? This comment is true of any language newsgroup - people ask questions about the language, rather than announce their applications. A good idea of the usage of J can be had from the Proceedings of the recent J User Conference.
[46] From: donwiss@panix.com (Don Wiss) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 04:57:05 GMT Subject: Re: Why not comp.lang.J? On Wed, 25 Sep 1996, "C. Andrew Shepp" <72644.2615@compuserve.com> wrote: >Finally on this too-long thread, I want "j" in the comp.lang.apl >group so I can have one fewer newsgroups to read. That is a rather selfish response. What about the time some of us waste downloading a message to read, many subjects are ambiguous, and it turns out to be for the other language, which we're not interested in? All long as the J people hide in this APL group the language will never have a major presence in the newsgroups, which is an important part of the Net. The future of J should be more important than your laziness. Don.
[47] From: donwiss@panix.com (Don Wiss) Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 05:16:08 GMT Subject: Re: apl program for Cubic Eq. Don Guinn <donguinn@wt.net> wrote: >Leonard Howell wrote: >> >> I'm trying to find an apl program that gives the closed form solution to a >> general cubic equation, and then another program for the general quartic >It would be easy to convert these procedures to J since J >handles complex numbers. > >There's something in the J Dictionary about factoring polinomials, but >I'm still new to J and haven't gotten into that yet. Don Guinn, Why is it that the J people have to impose their J on everybody? Leonard clearly asked for an APL program. It's even thoughtfully put in the subject. You go off and talk about J. It's bad enough that the J people are camping out in the APL group, but at least be discrete about it! Don Wiss.

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